Alle 122 Kommentare

[–]corobo 40 Punkte41 Punkte  (8 Kinder)

This doesn't take into account the sheer amount of websites that exist now.

You might have been able to do this in the early 2000s with a webring or something.

But anyway, assuming I'm wrong and it's manageable somehow - I don't get the browser bit, that would require end users to use a new browser that needs maintaining, could just be a search engine with a whitelist of sites it crawls rather than try to pry people's browser from their hands. Skip the browser part, that's gonna eat all of your time on its own. 

[–]ShawnyMcKnight 7 Punkte8 Punkte  (1 Kind)

Maybe they could use AI to filter their criteria! /s

[–]sweetbeard 2 Punkte3 Punkte  (0 Kinder)

Actually a legit use case

[–]web-dev-kev 50 Punkte51 Punkte  (6 Kinder)

We build a new browser

We did that already. Multiple times. People don't want to use them.

Everythign you are saying solves a problem for us techies, not for real people

[–]ShawnyMcKnight 21 Punkte22 Punkte  (1 Kind)

I wouldn’t even say it solves a problem. It would be frustrating trying to get information when I can only access a minuscule pre-approved subset of the internet.

Like, the only “news” sites that could afford these ad limitations would be ones that are just hobbyists, or worse those who find the value not in money but in deception.

The scariest part would be the moderators. We already struggle with this on Reddit where they can curate the narrative on the sub to what they want it to be. What stops these mods from doing the same? As the election approaches what if they reject articles against candidates they support or vice versa? These are volunteers, so they will be given a lot of leeway since they do it for free.

I get the Internet has its annoyances but the extreme limited internet you would have here would be frustrating as hell.

[–]thekwoka 3 Punkte4 Punkte  (0 Kinder)

Yup, the Tiny Tyrants problem

[–]Okasenlun 5 Punkte6 Punkte  (3 Kinder)

Yep. This is the problem with the Gemini protocol and smolweb or the fediverse, or even self hosted websites or services not using major platforms. I struggle to get relatively tech savvy people local to me to move from a discord server I run to a matrix server I run, because Matrix is unfamiliar to them and they already have a discord account. Same with every business and group having a Facebook presence that needs you to be logged into Facebook, but no free to see presence.

It's an outreach problem that I don't know how to solve without a concerted marketing/PSA effort.

That said I've heard of grassroots stuff like this working on a small scale before. Had a co-worker talk about how he brought WiFi to his small Scottish island, it was him and a small group of volunteers basically building brand new infrastructure and introducing old rural folks to the internet for the first time. In the 2020s. He wasn't inventing anything new, but convincing this island to use the internet after being disenfranchised for so long feels like a similar hurdle.

[–]kayk1 57 Punkte58 Punkte  (8 Kinder)

“From a community of mods” 

Yea, no

[–]SenecaSentMe 38 Punkte39 Punkte  (15 Kinder)

  1.  Social media algorithms do not need to exist.  Posts need to be chronological.  That’s it. 

[–]SardScroll 18 Punkte19 Punkte  (11 Kinder)

Technically, making posts chronological is an algorithm.

"Posts from my feeds/subscriptions" is also an algorithm.

The problem isn't "there's an algorithm"; the problem is "the algorithm isn't exposed and I don't get to choose it" (imo). But also, most people don't care.

[–]detroitsongbird 2 Punkte3 Punkte  (0 Kinder)

Bluesky lets you choose, just sayin’

[–]ShawnyMcKnight 2 Punkte3 Punkte  (8 Kinder)

Is that an algorithm? Simply sorting by post date or something? I always thought an algorithm had to be more complex than that?

[–]SardScroll 5 Punkte6 Punkte  (5 Kinder)

Nope: Source. I'm a professional software engineer. An algorithm is a step by step sequence of instructions to solve a specific class of problems. They can be extremely simple, if the problem is simple.

And sorting is not necessarily simple. We have many different algorithms to sort through things: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorting_algorithm, because of differing characteristics of different sort algorithms.

[–]ShawnyMcKnight 0 Punkte1 Punkt  (4 Kinder)

Well, in this case it would be super simple, the posts are in the social media’s database with a time stamp. Adding a simple “ORDER BY post_datetime DESC” tacked on the end would be all you need.

[–]ings0c 2 Punkte3 Punkte  (0 Kinder)

Yes, but that’s because the detail is abstracted away. Sorting is very much an algorithm. It’s a series of steps you follow to get a result.

It’s not especially complicated, but it qualifies nonetheless.

Ultimately all that would be required to sort on a big platform is going to be (very broadly) the equivalent of ORDER BY SomeRankColumn (and likely not SQL) but that doesn’t make it less of an algorithm.

I think the problem here is that algorithms are only mentioned in popular culture when they’re highly complex news feed curation algorithms, watch next recommendations etc. That is a very narrow subset of all algorithms- the word has a broader meaning.

[–]NoteBlock08 0 Punkte1 Punkt  (0 Kinder)

Just because most languages make it very easy to do a sort does not mean that sorts are easy.

Just like how all I have to do to make my car go forward is press on the gas pedal, but that doesn't mean everything that goes on under the hood is remotely as simple.

[–]15f026d6016c482374bf -1 Punkte0 Punkte  (1 Kind)

literally people arguing that ORDER BY DATE DESC is an algorithm, and this is why things went to shit

[–]ShawnyMcKnight 0 Punkte1 Punkt  (0 Kinder)

I think they are just saying sorting can be an algorithm depending its use case. I think the criteria is it needs to mutate the object, like ordering an array of names. In the case of pulling from a db you don’t do that.

[–]BlueScreenJunkyphp/laravel 3 Punkte4 Punkte  (0 Kinder)

Simply sorting

I always thought an algorithm had to be more complex than that?

Turns out "simply sorting" is a whole class of algorithms in itself : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorting_algorithm

[–]redblobgames 0 Punkte1 Punkt  (0 Kinder)

Twitter and Facebook do let you choose, but I think most people leave it on the default.

[–]pseudo_babbler 1 Punkt2 Punkte  (0 Kinder)

And separate the event organising, calendars and personal updates from the random chat and posting links to news articles. Or just ban posting links to news articles.

[–]shredinger137 0 Punkte1 Punkt  (0 Kinder)

I think the motivation behind the algorithm is the key. This can be expanded on.

[–]KaleAshamed9702 21 Punkte22 Punkte  (19 Kinder)

No ads = no money. How do these people get paid? How do they survive? Sure it’s nice to imagine something like this working but have you tried doing a ton of work for no money and no possibility of making money while you scrape by?

[–]HaddockBranzini-II 1 Punkt2 Punkte  (2 Kinder)

Ads were so much better than paywalls. I also used to get good money building Flash banners back in the day, so I am a bit biased. But was about 50% of my freelance income until around 2017or so.

[–]KaleAshamed9702 2 Punkte3 Punkte  (1 Kind)

No one is paying for non targeted ads anymore

[–]HaddockBranzini-II 1 Punkt2 Punkte  (0 Kinder)

True, but as someone once paid to make those ads, it is also sad. Making those ads was a nice change of pace from long dev projects.

[–]Malechusnovice 1 Punkt2 Punkte  (3 Kinder)

yeah, it's impossible to maintain a software ecosystem run by volunteers with no ad or subscription revenue. That's why no dependencies on open source projects exist.

[–]roamingandy[S] -3 Punkte-2 Punkte  (3 Kinder)

No pop-up ads or trackers. If a company wants to reach a specific group then they should be paying for normal ads on sites that are likely to be of interest to that demographic.

Sites were able to run on dumb ads in the old days. The only difference now is that marketing companies want to collect everyone's personal data.

I don't see why we need to let them.

[–]LukeLC 3 Punkte4 Punkte  (2 Kinder)

I'm a fan of the general idea but just have to point out here:

"Dumb" ads worked on the old internet because big-ish companies were willing to pay for them. Ads have long been so commoditized now that the value of a single click is near zero—not enough to sustain a small circle of creators.

There is a risk of the only people running ads at high enough CPC being inside that circle. And of people who care enough to use this service to also care enough to use an ad blocker.

I'm sure this can be solved, just pointing out the problem.

It's true that many community-driven sites of the past were not profitable and were run on passion instead. That worked when people had money and time to spare. Tougher in today's world.

[–]roamingandy[S] 0 Punkte1 Punkt  (1 Kind)

Yeah, good points.

I think the new-net itself would be the selling point initially. Small companies wanting to support it, or show solidarity as it's good for their reputation with their main customers.

We could request that ad-blockers are turned off since they aren't needed when ads are unobtrusive, and if an ad isn't then we want it reported. Some people would still use ad-blockers.

We could perhaps try to request the ad-blockers turn themselves off on our sites, since their mission and ours is very much aligned. No idea if they'd agree, but worth exploring.

[–]LukeLC 1 Punkt2 Punkte  (0 Kinder)

It would have to be something like that, yeah.

I'm reminded of Steve Wozniak commenting that when the internet was being built, it should have been set up like its own country. You really do need a set of global moderators to both protect and enforce; and a way to remove moderators who don't act in that interest.

[–]hopingforabetterpast -5 Punkte-4 Punkte  (3 Kinder)

There are immense revenue alternatives to ads.

[–]FishFart 6 Punkte7 Punkte  (1 Kind)

Like what?

[–]hopingforabetterpast -2 Punkte-1 Punkte  (0 Kinder)

you can't be serious. is adware all you consume?

membership/subscriptions, affiliate marketing, digital products, physical products, sponsorship, donations, product licensing, data licensing, marketplace fees, SaaS, events/webinars, white-labeling, escrow, directory listing, ...

social media bs is not the internet

[–]KaleAshamed9702 4 Punkte5 Punkte  (0 Kinder)

Keep going you’re doing great sweaty

[–]roamingandy[S] -2 Punkte-1 Punkte  (3 Kinder)

No pop-up ads or trackers. If a company wants to reach a specific group then they should be paying for normal ads on sites that are likely to be of interest to that demographic.

Sites were able to run on dumb ads in the old days. The only difference now is that marketing companies want to collect everyone's personal data.

I don't see why we need to let them.

[–]thekwoka 0 Punkte1 Punkt  (2 Kinder)

Broadly: so that ads are less disruptive and more relevant.

It's 100% better for users that ads are relevant to their interests vs random.shit.

[–]roamingandy[S] 0 Punkte1 Punkt  (1 Kind)

It's 100% better for users that ads are relevant to their interests vs random.shit.

I disagree. I don't want ads knowing who i am. If i visit a computer game website, i want to see computer game ads. Not holiday's in Greece because i mentioned that near my wife's phone because she always clicks 'accept all' on everything.

[–]cointoss3 0 Punkte1 Punkt  (0 Kinder)

You seem to have an incredibly naive view on…everything you’ve said so far.

[–]JohnnyGhoul777 7 Punkte8 Punkte  (6 Kinder)

If the mods are anything like reddit mods it wont work. Otherwise Im down

[–]ShawnyMcKnight 2 Punkte3 Punkte  (1 Kind)

That’s my fear. The level to which these mods can curate information in these large subs is concerning. During the height of the political season I can see these mods being strict on the rules for messages they disagree with and loose on ones they agree with.

[–]JohnnyGhoul777 0 Punkte1 Punkt  (0 Kinder)

Like u/maxwellhill being a News moderator

[–]roamingandy[S] 1 Punkt2 Punkte  (3 Kinder)

I don't think they would, or could be, if we are able to prepare a solid list of what is 'good user first, non addictive internet' and what isn't.

Their role is to check new site submissions and reports from other users, so either 'yes, it passes' or 'no, it does because. X'. Any mistakes or abuse would be picked up as soon as the next user reports the site.

[–]MhamadKexpert 10 Punkte11 Punkte  (0 Kinder)

Did y'all forget that SO existed already, and devs moderated shit there?

Developers don't usually have great people skills or empathy.

[–]thekwoka 1 Punkt2 Punkte  (1 Kind)

Basically like Baseline browser features but for websites?

[–]roamingandy[S] 0 Punkte1 Punkt  (0 Kinder)

Yeah, but it would need to be moderated otherwise people will quickly find ways around everything if it gets popular.

[–]Marble_Wraith 4 Punkte5 Punkte  (0 Kinder)

  1. We build a new browser with a built in search engine that only lists pre-approved sites.

You don't need an entirely new browser for that, not to mention i don't think you appreciate just how much it takes to create one.

In the short term, just make a github repo and create some domain lists for use with:

Other then that support ($) and use the full version of uBO (via helium, Brave, FF, or some other browser), PiHole, and Adguard.

In the long term look into protocols like I2P or IPFS.

I'd say the biggest thing we could do is replace DNS with something better. Because the way it works is insane: costly, very little power to individuals / small business, problems with UX (e.g. inheritence if someone dies without passing on creds), easily susceptible to scams, etc.

  1. We actively encourage people to rebuild popular sites, with all the shit removed (and branding changed), then list them as an 'alternative to' which users can search. Like Facebook, but with your friends and community events, rather than politics and influencers.

Dunno where you've been, but that's already happened multiple times over. Friendica, Mastodon, lemmy, OSSN ...

The biggest problem with social networks is discover-ability. If people aren't all on the same service it negatively impacts the perception / conversion rates to said service.

People don't want to have to setup multiple profiles on multiple services and manage the interactions between them all. It's also the reason why once big platforms capture marketshare, they have staying power. For example why do you think SMS is still around even tho' it's an insecure pile of dogshit?

There's been only a couple of efforts to solve this for social media AFAIK (BlueSky AT protocol, https://grayjay.app/).

That said there's coming opportunity.

Looking at the current trajectory of the world with digital ID's being pushed, more people will start looking for alternatives. I think one of the biggest issues with the internet is the original paradigm never accounted for authentication, because universities and institutions relied on their own internal processes to do that.

  1. We encourage self-hosting and community hosting ideas, to keep costs down and reduce the need for to monetise everything. Also self-ownership or community ownership, over companies.

Encouraging isn't good enough, people already do that, incentives need to be involved. My strat would be:

  1. We sell you (normie) this box (machine about the size of a mac mini). Decent amount of cores + 2 separate SSD's.

  2. You hook it up to your router and (perhaps with minor network config) you get access to XYZ selfhosted stuff + a P2P network to leverage things like access to new websites (nu-sites), better caching, etc. While also participating yourself (eg. 1 of the SSD's and some compute cores would be dedicated to "the network").

You'd be paying the upfront hardware cost + donating some bandwidth on your internet connection (say a minimum of 10Mbps up/down). So it wouldn't be for everyone, but still enough of a sizable buyers market.

To give an example and get started: 1: No user data collection (beyond account creation where needed).

Unrealistic. People have become normalized to parasocial relationships now, they'll post about themselves online, account related or not. The thing that must be looked at is how to give them autonomy to their own data.

2: No pop up ads 3: No targeted ads

... So you haven't been using uBO or any kind of internet condom? 😂

Being serious. Advertising is just a reality. However the rules could be stricter.

Make it so that most advertising, can only happen via the seller them self.

Conceptually it's like thinking of websites / services like a traditional brick and mortar store. Yeah they'll stick out flyers / coupons from time to time (social media / email campaign), maybe even buy ad space on radio / tv (paying creatives for review / product placement). But at the end of the day over 50% of their advertising is done on the premises.

Additionally have a rule that no user can be shown more then 3 ads per 24 hours universally (for every service). Each ad can only be a max of 20 seconds long, and each site / service can only show 1.

Because effectively the first 3 sites / services a user visits in each 24 hour period, determine what ads they see. Each site / service has a motivation to provide the best UX possible to entice users to hit it first.

4: No walled-garden social media 5: No political ads pushed via social media 6: Social media algorithms must be opensource and promote healthy content, over out-rage and drama.

I addressed the walled-garden aspect already.

Political ads... Sounds like your algorithm's are algorithming. They know you're susceptible to that kind of stuff, so they're shoving it in your face and you think that's the whole internet.

Going on /r/Eyebleach is hardly political.

Regarding algo's being opensource, i'm more inclined to say: they don't need to exist at all.

7: No addictive design, taking ideas or working with, groups like Time Well Spent, IndieWeb, Solid, The Calm Technology philosophy, etc

The most valuable thing in today's internet isn't attention, it's perspectives.

Sure people give attention because they "doom scroll" or whatever. But it's also because we're drowning in information of questionable quality ie. we're required to give attention and soak up as much information as possible so we can try and figure it out for ourselves.

Originally academics / institutions were supposed to be the authorities for information integrity. But in recent years they too have become ideologically charged (falling standards) / generators of slop, not unlike AI... But this is an adjacent problem.

[–]tobi914 2 Punkte3 Punkte  (1 Kind)

Aside from the vastly reduced usefulness of the "new internet", the incredible amount of development work and management requirements, why the custom browser on top of all that? Maybe keep it realistic and start oit with a registry of sites that meet your requirements, including a search engine going only through those sites. This will be more than enough work to start out with

[–]roamingandy[S] 0 Punkte1 Punkt  (0 Kinder)

There's quite a lot of sites out there already that are 'good internet' sites and could be submitted. Initially it'd definitely be a community for those passionate about the project.

Building the browser later makes sense. I think it is needed though as browsers also track users and collect their data.

[–]pseudo_babbler 2 Punkte3 Punkte  (0 Kinder)

I think it's an interesting idea. It would be nice to show people that there's a place on the internet where you can explore freely without just being tracked and harassed, hounded for money and attention, and have to constantly beware of dodgy content.

I personally would also make it free from adult content, or at least very easy to separate that stuff and a site can either be adult content or not. None of this Instagram / Reddit / Pinterest / Tumblr / Facebook shit where there's just porn everywhere mixed in to all the other content. Partly because I just find it distasteful to have porn lurking everywhere and also partly because if it was truly an option to have a much safer web where kids could browse you'd instantly have interest from a billion people on earth who want that for their kids.

I think having a really clear set of rules is key. Define what a tracker is, what targeted advertising is, infinite scroll, mature content, gambling / lootbox / addictive content and just try to de-monopolise the internet. A site should do one thing only. It can't be a calendar events organiser site and also a news article sharing site. It can't try to replace the web of sites with it's own web of content.

If you decide to take the idea further I'd be glad to get in there and debate some ideas for how it might actually work, both technically and socially.

[–]ryan_devry 2 Punkte3 Punkte  (0 Kinder)

The "internet" as a collection of protocols and promises is still (mostly) fine. What you're taking issue with is a bunch of shitty websites and the fact that 90% of the internet's users don't leave the Big Five.

Instead of trying to invent a walled garden, why not get involved with Mozilla or the EFF?

[–]DoGooderMcDoogles 8 Punkte9 Punkte  (6 Kinder)

There needs to be a Software Engineering Union or something. I don’t know much about forming unions but…. We’re screwed if we don’t come together.

Or the government needs to tax AI agents at crazy high rates so it costs like $40k+/yr to run them to at least be competitive with paying a human.

Pretty sure we’re screwed though!

[–]ItzRaphZ 5 Punkte6 Punkte  (0 Kinder)

It already costs way more than that. Companies just don't care and are falling for the biggest scam in existence.

[–]ShawnyMcKnight 2 Punkte3 Punkte  (0 Kinder)

These AI companies are losing money at a crazy rate. I’m confident that the prices will go up soon enough… not that high, but high enough that they would use it more sparingly.

Right now we are in the stage DARE told us would happen where they give the drug out for free to get you hooked.

[–]thekwoka 2 Punkte3 Punkte  (0 Kinder)

$40k+/yr to

already does bruh

[–]shiny0metal0assfull-stack idiot 1 Punkt2 Punkte  (0 Kinder)

Just give it a lil'bit. They don't need to be taxed lol

I would agree if this was actually AGI though

[–]divinecomedian3 -4 Punkte-3 Punkte  (1 Kind)

Govern me harder, daddy

[–]shiny0metal0assfull-stack idiot 1 Punkt2 Punkte  (0 Kinder)

Lol like this fucking dude is a Billionaire trying to trash our whole industry for a quick buck.

No one is trying to stop you from doing anything. They're stopping you from being taken advantage of.

[–]bill_gonorrhea 17 Punkte18 Punkte  (1 Kind)

lol. you sound 14

[–]stablefish 0 Punkte1 Punkt  (0 Kinder)

says the super mature totally smart 16 year old.

[–]TowerOfSisyphus 3 Punkte4 Punkte  (1 Kind)

MFs love to complain about Google while only ever using Google. Alternatives exist to everything you've listed. Use them.

[–]roamingandy[S] 2 Punkte3 Punkte  (0 Kinder)

I do. My doing so doesn't change the wider picture very much though.

[–]FishFart 1 Punkt2 Punkte  (0 Kinder)

I’ve been thinking about this same idea for awhile now and I’m sure many other have as well but there are some major blockers from preventing the small/good guys from competing.

  1. Monetization: most websites are free and users want to keep it that way, so money from ads is a hard problem to solve. Profit sharing in a “network” would help the smaller sites survive
  2. Organization: how do we make it so we don’t get shit mods? Moderation needs to be more transparent and there should be a constant feedback loop that allows for shit mods to be removed or get temporary bans, etc.
  3. Problem solving: this goes along with organization to but we need a dedicated space to organize problems, solving something like this through Reddit threads or discord servers are not enough, there needs to be a dedicated place. And if there is, no one knows where to go, which leads to the next problem
  4. Gaining popularity: I think this might be the biggest problem. We have people already solving the technical problems in silos, the browser problem, for example is mostly solved. How do you get people to switch to better tools when the ones they are using now are working. Signing up for more websites/ apps is a huge pain in the ass. So I think we need instead of us building, we more so need to get together and advertise the shit out of existing options as a collective

[–]uberprodude 1 Punkt2 Punkte  (0 Kinder)

I love this in theory, I think it'd have to be built to see how it holds up in practice though.

I would suggest on points 4 and 5, combine them and rather than only letting through whatever mods say, have users reports negatively effect the sites SEO. If you can find other metrics that could quantify enshitification to a degree, use that against their SEO too

[–]abeuscher 1 Punkt2 Punkte  (3 Kinder)

Have you considered just promoting the Fediverse and all the open source alternatives that already exist?

10 years ago open source may have been hard to make a case for, but pretty much every software problem has a strong and viable open source solution at this point.

What open source lacks is marketing and documentation because both cost time and neither looks particularly impressive on a resume, which I think is the main incentive we have devised so far for people to become open source contributors.

So if you really want to make a difference, start building websites that promote these products and give people a path toward them, and contribute to docs so they are more usable.

The internet we want is already here. You just have to stop using corporate owned tools to navigate it. Google is no longer functional. Facebook is a nightmare, and Youtube is a predatory piece of garbage. BUT most folks are not aware of the alternatives, and many of the alternatives lack accessibility and approachability.

If we could fix the internet by writing code it already would have happened. What is needed here is marketing, docs, and other non technical help to bring the audience to the existing suite of products.

There's no mods needed. Stop trying to create a new power structure and just do stuff instead. That's what open source is meant to encourage. Forming workgroups and mods and shit is a waste of time and leads to political problems and all kinds of non technical problems.

The one thing you have to acknowledge is that the alternative services do not provide the same dopamine hit as the paid services because that's part of their evil. So you are, in a sense, asking people to quit heroin and eat vegetables instead.

TL;DR: Just help sell what's already there. That's the part that isn't done.

[–]roamingandy[S] 0 Punkte1 Punkt  (2 Kinder)

Well, i think a lot of the Fediverse would fit into this idea and it would be a system to make it easier to find, but the Fediverse doesn't enforce 'good web' policies outside of having no walled gardens.

It just tends towards good policy due to the people attracted towards it. So if the Fediverse exploded, a lot of the same issues with today's main sites, would creep back in.

I envisage the search function encouraging users to search for sites they know and it presenting alternatives when they do, making it easier for average people to jump into. Perhaps even encouraging them to allow uploading backups of their profiles from the original site, so they don't have to start from the beginning.

[–]eltoniq 2 Punkte3 Punkte  (8 Kinder)

I’ve often contemplated about this. Kinda like the dark web but for good. But I think the protocols and browser need to be reimagined. JavaScript is a shit language. The only reason it exists is modern browsers, standardization and optimization.

[–]Rare-Leading3391 1 Punkt2 Punkte  (6 Kinder)

You forget, the so called bad was introduced by human beings. Is there a reason why your dark web is going to remain "good" when the gate keepers are the same species that introduced the bad in the other place to begin with?

[–]ItzRaphZ 2 Punkte3 Punkte  (0 Kinder)

This is a great point. Cookies were a really revolutionary idea until advertisers put their hands in them.

[–]eltoniq 1 Punkt2 Punkte  (2 Kinder)

For the dark web it’s a bit different because the protocol allows packets to go through supposedly an untraceable set of nodes (yes debate-able) so it’s ripe for anonymous and often criminal activity. Which is why I think the protocol needs to be different than the dark web but also different than the internet as we know it now.

[–]thekwoka 0 Punkte1 Punkt  (0 Kinder)

Sure, but it was DARPA that invented TOR, just like they did the normal Internet.

[–]roamingandy[S] 0 Punkte1 Punkt  (0 Kinder)

You need to define what 'a good website' is and what is 'en-shittification', and then measure all sites by that list.

If it gets popular i expect it will need updating from time to time as people find ways to push profit over people ideology onto it.

There'd need to be community votes on new rules, but not often otherwise it'd be chaos. Maybe a yearly vote on rule changes/additions proposed by the community which make the new net more focused on the utility for the user rather than profit and exploiting them.

[–]shiny0metal0assfull-stack idiot 0 Punkte1 Punkt  (0 Kinder)

Hey, JavaScript may be shit, in fact, it definitely is, but I still love him!

[–]D0MiN0H 1 Punkt2 Punkte  (4 Kinder)

the only way to seize the means of production is with strong unions.

[–]roamingandy[S] -1 Punkte0 Punkte  (3 Kinder)

Do unions still work when companies are looking for reasons to fire workers and replace them with AI, or off-shore them?

[–]D0MiN0H 1 Punkt2 Punkte  (2 Kinder)

yes, they are the Only defense against that.

[–]roamingandy[S] -1 Punkte0 Punkte  (1 Kind)

If they are actively looking to reduce their workers, unions have no power. They want you to strike, or down tools, and then use that as a reason to fire you all.

Like the coal miners in England. They striked hard, brought the countries finances to their knees, but the PM (Margaret Thatcher) decided just to close all the mines and let them lose their jobs instead of paying them fairly.

It only has power if the employer needs the workers.

[–]D0MiN0H 0 Punkte1 Punkt  (0 Kinder)

Depending on the country, it is illegal to fire employees for being in a union or using their labor rights to strike. Striking is still the biggest power employees have. You don’t wield that power willy nilly, you have to save for strike funds first and sometimes even organize across industries.

[–]Brilliant-Sea-9424 1 Punkt2 Punkte  (0 Kinder)

Communism is dangerous and so is this thread.

[–]Paradroid888 2 Punkte3 Punkte  (2 Kinder)

I 100% agree. It's got so bad I'm preferring using an early 2000s Mac and using the web via Frogfind.

Let's leave all the dross behind and start again but put rules in that make it for humans not bloodsucking corporations.

New protocol maybe. Leave https to serve up the slop.

[–]hopingforabetterpast 1 Punkt2 Punkte  (1 Kind)

[–]myhf 0 Punkte1 Punkt  (0 Kinder)

Google Chrome has Gemini now! /s

[–]arekkushisu 0 Punkte1 Punkt  (0 Kinder)

"We build a new browser with a built in search engine that only lists pre-approved sites."
Maybe a new browser that just browses a page and not do/execute/render every script/graphics/bloat there is

[–]gallyroi 0 Punkte1 Punkt  (0 Kinder)

It's difficult, because you're not just going up against shitty websites and services. You're battling time proven, thoroughly tested, socially engineered platforms that are designed to keep people as hyper-engaged as possible, to the point of addiction, with systems and designs that prey on the brain's reward mechanisms, and with punishing levels of exclusivity and "pain paths" that make leaving these walled gardens dreadfully inconvenient. Being "better" simply won't be enough, many have already tried (or are still trying) and genuinely have better services/apps, but novelty and customer service cannot compete against juggernauts in the attention economy who never played fair to begin with.

[–]Bjorkbat 0 Punkte1 Punkt  (0 Kinder)

I’m with you in spirit, I just don’t think the solution is a search engine that only lists “pre-approved sites”.  For that matter I don’t think a search engine is a solution.  The economics of search engines means they’re easily seduced by “pay to play” schemes that biases results towards those with deep pockets.

Personally I think the solution is in social networking and curation.  Search engines have been, or could be, replaced by people sharing things they like.  The exception to this rule would be if you wanted to find businesses nearby, but even then social networking is the new search in that I get ideas on where to eat out from Instagram and the like.

So yeah, I think we need to make decentralized social curation more attractive.  Bring back webrings.  Make the Fediverse cool.

Biggest problem I think is that there’s not much of an overlap between people with cool interests and good tastes and “idealists”.  Unfortunately, all the designers and artists I admire are corporate sellouts who have little choice but to be active on Twitter and Instagram if they want to pay the bills.

EDIT: kind of surprised no one has thought “hey, why not build an open source Arc Browser?”.  Sure, Arc was built on top of Chromium, so it’s more Chromium wrapper than true browser, but I don’t care, I just want a cool-looking browser that isn’t Chrome

[–]ZheeDog [Bewertung versteckt]  (0 Kinder)

"seize the means of production"? Who are you, Karl Marx? And what's this "only lists pre-approved sites..." crap? It sounds like central planner's wet dream... That said, your problem is that you do not understand that there is not any "The Internet" any more than there is a "The Society". The secret to a happy life is to focus on what you want, and avoid what you do not want. Thus, the real issue you have is that you lack an effective cognitive pre-filtering approach... But this can be cured simply by changing how you do things. Give me one example where shitty internet is thwarting you, and I'll show you an effective avoidance scheme.

[–]Existing-Wallaby-444 -1 Punkte0 Punkte  (7 Kinder)

Brought to you by AI

[–]roamingandy[S] 7 Punkte8 Punkte  (5 Kinder)

...bloody hell mate.

We're in here talking about AI taking our jobs, and you can't even tell the difference between my ramblings and a dry AI output.

That's pretty scary.

But go ahead and chuck it through an AI detector if you want.

[–]Vizceral_ 0 Punkte1 Punkt  (0 Kinder)

We got the modern day John Henry over here.

Not to be too sparky, but these ideas don't take off because the internet is not made for people that have these ideals anymore, like the early days. It's made for people that scroll YouTube shorts for a bit too long after work and then throw on a Netflix show with dinner.

We've got more software to build, but I don't see it. Bluesky and Mastodon aren't appealing to the vast majority of people.

[–]CondiMesmer 0 Punkte1 Punkt  (0 Kinder)

Lol who is "we"? 

Also when doing such a hilariously impractical suggestion, maybe search if these things are being done in the first place. Instead of being completely oblivious to the state of the web despite trying to change it.

[–]citrus1330 0 Punkte1 Punkt  (0 Kinder)

So I'm only allowed to visit websites approved by you and your group of friends? No thanks.

[–]NoiseyGameYT 0 Punkte1 Punkt  (0 Kinder)

This seems to be a good idea. I wouldn’t mind making the browser. We can use GitHub pages for its api, and the browser can be made with pyQT’s web browser extension. If anyone wants to help make it then I wouldn’t mind making a git repo for it after someone makes up a name.

[–]BorinGaems 0 Punkte1 Punkt  (0 Kinder)

First thing first: google has been shit for almost 10 years.

Second thing: the whole "community of mods" is absolutely an insane take.

Your whole internet proposal sounds like pure fascism.

To fix the internet we simply have to get rid of ways to modify the percepted value of thears and posts, basically we need to get rid of upvotes and algorithms.

And honestly, I'd also get rid of mods. Every community need rules but power tripping mods have always (and still are) a huge issue to every community. I'd rather have a decent AI judging spam and shitposts rather then having some randos no lifers on some holy quest judging everyone in whatever way they want.

[–]JohnCasey3306 0 Punkte1 Punkt  (0 Kinder)

You lost me at mods lol

[–]BorinGaems -1 Punkte0 Punkte  (1 Kind)

First thing first: google has been shit for almost 10 years.

Second thing: the whole "community of mods" is absolutely an insane take.

Your whole internet proposal sounds like pure fascism.

To fix the internet we simply have to get rid of ways to modify the percepted value of thears and posts, basically we need to get rid of upvotes and algorithms.

And honestly, I'd also get rid of mods. Every community need rules but power tripping mods have always (and still are) a huge issue to every community. I'd rather have a decent AI judging spam and shitposts rather then having some randos no lifers on some holy quest judging everyone in whatever way they want.

[–]roamingandy[S] -1 Punkte0 Punkte  (0 Kinder)

How can you power trip if your role is 'does this site fail against this list?'.

Its a yes/no question, and if a mod flags no then the site would be given a warning to fix it, then a different mod would check back to see if they had by the date set.

Someone could power trip by approving sites which should fail, but the community would flag that pretty quick and other mods would ask why that site was approved and by who.

Maybe in discussions as there'd have to be a forum for coordination, but that's a step removed from the user facing 'new net'.

[–]vi6in -1 Punkte0 Punkte  (0 Kinder)

Everything in life software or not, is literally an algorithm.. lol if you’ve never wrapped your head around that through the journey of becoming an engineer then.. lol you may be bottom of the barrel

[–]jqVgawJG -1 Punkte0 Punkte  (0 Kinder)

This is pointless. And even though i agree with your motivation, this is the world we live in now. AI is the future, resistance is futile. You'll find more purpose in accepting it and using it to your advantage